The Great Apostasy

E Book The Great Apostasy It s a little too reliant on the anti Catholic protestant modernist histories that were popular around the time Elder Talmadge wrote it I would recommend it as an illustrati

E-Book The Great Apostasy It's a little too reliant on the anti Catholic protestant modernist histories that were popular around the time Elder Talmadge wrote it. I would recommend it as an illustration of how the church thought of the apostasy around the turn of the century, but wouldn't take it as the last word on the history. At the very least, it should be read with Miranda Wilcox's Standing Apart as a more updated companion piece.. The Great Apostasy Viral Book James E Talmage s thorough discussion of the significance of the great apostasy as a condition for the reestablishment of the Church in modern times A summary of the most important evidences of the decline and final extinction of the primitive church Helpful for missionaries and investigators Offers a clear understanding of the apostasy and the restoration of the priesJames E Talmage s thorough discussion of the significance of the great apostasy as a condition for the reestablishment of the Church in modern times A summary of the most important evidences of the decline and final extinction of the primitive church Helpful for missionaries and investigators Offers a clear understanding of the apostasy and the restoration of the priesthood.. James Edward Talmage was a member of the Council of the Twelve Apostles, and a resident of Salt Lake City, Utah He was born Sunday Sept 21, 1862, at Hungerford, Berkshire, England, the son of James Joyce Talmage and his wife, Susannah Preater He is the first son and second child in a family of eight He was baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints at the place of his birth, June 15, 1873, and on the 18th of the following August was ordained a Deacon in the Ramsbury branch of the London conference The entire family left England May 24, 1876, landed in New York June 5th, and arrived in Salt Lake City June 14th following His career in the Church was upward and onward from the time of his baptism In Provo, Utah, where the family had established a home, he was ordained a Teacher December 17, 1877, and an Elder June 28, 1880 On September 29, 1884, he was ordained a High Priest, and was set apart as an alternate High Councilor in the Utah Stake of Zion On December 7, 1911, he was appointed and sustained to be one of the Apostles, to fill the vacancy caused by the appointment of Elder Charles W Penrose as second counselor in the First Presidency, and on the following day Dec 8th was ordained an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ and was set apart as one of the Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, under the hands of President Joseph F Smith, assisted by his counselors and members of the Council of the Twelve In 1888 June 14th he married Mary May Booth daughter of Richard Thornton Booth and his wife, Elsie Edge Booth , at the Manti Temple, and from this union there came the following children Sterling B born May 21, 1889 Paul Bborn Dec 21, 1891 Zella, born Aug 3, 1894, died of pneumonia April 27, 1895 Elsie, born Aug 16, 1896 James Karl, born Aug 29, 1898 Lucile, born May 29, 1900 Helen May, born Oct 24, 1902, and John Russell, born Feb 1, 1911 Elder Talmage obtained his early schooling in the National and Board schools of his home district in England, and was an Oxford diocesan prize scholar in 1874 He entered the Brigham Young Academy now University at Provo, Utah, in 1876, and followed to completion the high school and normal courses, and in his 17th year was a teacher of elementary science and English in the institution named His early predilection was for the sciences, and in 1882 83 he took a selected course, mainly in chemistry and geology, at Lehigh University, Bethlehem, Pa Though a special student and not a candidate for a degree, he passed during his single year of residence nearly all the examinations in the four year course and was later graduated and in 1883 84 he was engaged in advanced work at Johns Hopkins University, Balti, Md He returned to Utah in the fall of 1884, in response to a summons from the home institution, and served as professor of geology and chemistry, with varied activities in other departments, in the Brigham Young Academy from 1884 to 1888 While still a member of the faculty, he was elected a member of the board of trustees of the Brigham Young Academy During his residence in Provo, he served successively as city councilman, alderman and justice of the peace In 1888 he was called to Salt Lake City to take the presidency of the Latter day Saints College, which position he held until 1893 He was president of and professor of geology in the University of Utah, 1894 97 In the year last named he resigned the presidency, but retained the chair of geology, which had been specially endowed and ten years later 1907 he resigned the professorship to follow the practical work of mining geology, for which his services were in great demand In 1891 he received the degree of Bachelor of Science, and in 1912 the honorary degree of Doctor of Science, from his old alma mater, Lehigh University In 1890 he was given the honorary degree. Popular Books The Great Apostasy In writing this review, I fear that some of my Mormon friends may feel that I am attacking them and their religion. This is not the case. I am attacking James Edward Talmage's 1909 work entitled The Great Apostasy; Considered in the Light of Scriptural and Secular History, and taking him to task for shoddy historical method, a general ignorance of his subject matter, and poor conclusions. I do not encourage you to try to defend him, for his work is seriously flawed in a multitude of ways.After reading the introduction, I had high hopes for this work. Talmage starts off in the right spot, by stating, "if the alleged apostasy of the primitive church was not a reality, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the divine institution its name proclaims." This is the crux of the entire work, but unfortunately, it rapidly spiraled down from there. After a short historical introduction, he goes on to make the wild assumption that the true church of Christ can only exist with legitimate priestly succession. I suspect that this topic (given the overall geographical generalities Talmage would go on to discuss) is not really about historical scholarship at all, but rather an attempt to invalidate the Roman Catholic Church's claim of apolostolic succession from St. Peter. This fails to account for the "priesthood of all believers" that may be from I Peter 2:9, but it also fails to demonstrate any believable parallels between the ancient church and what the LDS believe today. Talmage argues that since the Roman Catholic Church changed the means of the ordinances they are thus apostate. One could claim that he fails to take into account the changes to the Mormon ordinances, but that is not the issue here. The issue is simply that Talmage failed to create any plausible case of discontinuity between the early church and the later, better-sourced, post-Constantinian church. It also entirely fails to account for Jesus' emphasis on the spirit of the law. Where exactly does Jesus teach the need for proper priestly succession done according to ritual, Mr. Talmage?Talmage then goes on to an inane discussion of Biblical prophecy. This section is a fine example of what happens when one chains up the scriptures and leads them around like tame beasts; they say whatever he wants them to say, despite flying in the face of context and academic reasoning. He uses Paul's warnings to the churches that the Gospel would be perverted to claim that this was some sort of prophecy that Paul had made, however, he nowhere is able to make any sort of link between the alleged perversion of the Gospel, and his own pre-conceived notions of a Great Apostasy. Another example is what he does with the seven churches in Anatolia in Revelation. Talmage claims that these were the last seven non-apostate churches (completely without evidence, as per usual). This really shows nothing other than a strong desire to make the evidence suit his preconceived conclusions, for even a superficial reading of Revelation will reveal that John's use of the number seven is a sign of completeness.The next section discusses disputes in the church and its persecution. He claims that persecution killed the strong members of the church, forced the weak to flee, and put the unworthy in positions of honour. The problem with this thesis is quickly made manifold. Talmage is unable to back up his statement with any sort of evidence, which he isn't going to find due to the fact that most persecutions of Christians were localized (these are remarkable similar to persecutions of Jews in the middle ages; they were a visible minority, and while they generally made good neighbours there was still something subversive about them) and very half-hearted. Despite the lack of evidence for his previous thesis, Talmage doesn't seem to be concerned at all, and continues to push for this somehow representing his Great Apostasy. Dispute in the church apparently means apostasy for Talmage as well, but it shouldn't for any critical reader.About halfway through the book, Talmage finally gets on to his criticism that Judaistic and Hellenistic ideas permeated the early church. It is true that various ideas crept into Christianity, but nowhere does Talmage demonstrate that they overrode the original message. He goes on to cite a highly-developed form of Gnosticism, but fails to account for the fact that the church viewed this as a heresy. One cannot argue that all of the Christian creeds were corrupt and abominable based on the fact there have been many splinter groups.He blames the formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity on Neo-Platonism, but this also stumbles. He cites similarities between Neo-Platonist ideas and the opening few verses of the Gospel of John. It is certain that John was using Hellenistic concepts to illustrate Jesus' divinity here. There is nothing inherently wrong with this; Luke changes details in his Gospel all the time to make it more amenable to Gentile readers, and Paul adopts Hellenistic rhetoric to better reach his audience at the Aeropagus in Athens. What is wrong with this is Talmage's assumption that John is primarily Hellenistic, when in fact the noted Anglican scholar N.T. Wright has demonstrated that it has more in common with Sirach, an apocryphal Old Testament book than it does with Platonism. The second issue is that the Neo-Platonics did not yet exist in the form that he claims, since it wasn't created until the third century, whilst most scholars believe that John was written sometime around 90 A.D. The third and final problem here is that Talmage believes the doctrine of the Trinity to be a later creation. Technically, this isn't a huge flaw, for the doctrine of the Trinity itself emerged later, but he fails to account for the early church's predilection towards worshipping Jesus as God, not to mention the Trinitarian statements that were made by pre-definition Christians!The final section reveals the same quality of research as the rest of the book. He lists off various crimes of the (apparently apostate) Catholic Church. We can all agree that these crimes were certainly not in the vein of what Jesus taught and set out to establish on Earth, and we should also be able to agree that this in itself means nothing. First, he only discusses the Catholic Church, and fails to discuss the others. Second, he provides no convincing [and usually just no] evidence that what Joseph Smith restored was ever taught by Jesus and lost in the early church. This last part is the ultimate crux of where he started; those teachings, ordinances and doctrines must have been lost in the first place in order for them to be restored, but Talmage cannot point to anything that suggested that what the Mormon Church teaches today is what Jesus taught. On that basis, this book is a miserable failure. The fact that the Deseret Book Company does not currently print this book emphasizes Auden's quote: "Some books are undeservedly forgotten; none are undeservedly remembered."As for the edition itself, this reprint is quite awful. Since the text was OCR'd, it abounds with erroneous characters. It is never very clear where the chapters begin and end, and the notes run into the text. The index is also a hopeless mess. Considering the depth of research that this book has, combined with this being a rather awful edition, it is hopefully headed to literary oblivion.
Will there be a great apostasy falling away during the Jan , Answer The Bible indicates that there will be a great apostasy during the end times The great apostasy is mentioned in Thessalonians The KJV calls it the falling away, while the NIV and ESV call it the rebellion And that s what an apostasy is a rebellion, an abandonment of the truth The end times will include a wholesale rejection of God s The Great Apostasy Church Of Jesus Christ This period is called the Great Apostasy With the death of the Apostles of Jesus Christ, the truth was lost once again This apostasy resulted in the formation of many churches with conflicting teachings During this time, many men and women sought the truth, but they were unable to find it. The Great Apostasy by James E Talmage James E Talmage s thorough discussion of the significance of the great apostasy as a condition for the reestablishment of the Church in modern times A summary of the most important evidences of the decline and final extinction of the primitive The Apostasy An Era of Spiritual Darkness The Destruction of Jerusalem Persecution in the First Centuries The Great Apostasy The Waldenses John Wycliffe Huss and Jerome Luther s Separation From Rome Luther Before the Diet The Swiss Reformer Progress of Reform in Germany Protest of the Princes The Great APOSTASY Apostate Church Worldly Whore Church The Great Apostasy Will Occur Before The Rapture The Bible teaches before the rapture occurs, two things will transpire The great apostasy and The revealing of the antichrist

  1. James Edward Talmage was a member of the Council of the Twelve Apostles, and a resident of Salt Lake City, Utah He was born Sunday Sept 21, 1862, at Hungerford, Berkshire, England, the son of James Joyce Talmage and his wife, Susannah Preater He is the first son and second child in a family of eight He was baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints at the place of his birth, June 15, 1873, and on the 18th of the following August was ordained a Deacon in the Ramsbury branch of the London conference The entire family left England May 24, 1876, landed in New York June 5th, and arrived in Salt Lake City June 14th following His career in the Church was upward and onward from the time of his baptism In Provo, Utah, where the family had established a home, he was ordained a Teacher December 17, 1877, and an Elder June 28, 1880 On September 29, 1884, he was ordained a High Priest, and was set apart as an alternate High Councilor in the Utah Stake of Zion On December 7, 1911, he was appointed and sustained to be one of the Apostles, to fill the vacancy caused by the appointment of Elder Charles W Penrose as second counselor in the First Presidency, and on the following day Dec 8th was ordained an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ and was set apart as one of the Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, under the hands of President Joseph F Smith, assisted by his counselors and members of the Council of the Twelve In 1888 June 14th he married Mary May Booth daughter of Richard Thornton Booth and his wife, Elsie Edge Booth , at the Manti Temple, and from this union there came the following children Sterling B born May 21, 1889 Paul Bborn Dec 21, 1891 Zella, born Aug 3, 1894, died of pneumonia April 27, 1895 Elsie, born Aug 16, 1896 James Karl, born Aug 29, 1898 Lucile, born May 29, 1900 Helen May, born Oct 24, 1902, and John Russell, born Feb 1, 1911 Elder Talmage obtained his early schooling in the National and Board schools of his home district in England, and was an Oxford diocesan prize scholar in 1874 He entered the Brigham Young Academy now University at Provo, Utah, in 1876, and followed to completion the high school and normal courses, and in his 17th year was a teacher of elementary science and English in the institution named His early predilection was for the sciences, and in 1882 83 he took a selected course, mainly in chemistry and geology, at Lehigh University, Bethlehem, Pa Though a special student and not a candidate for a degree, he passed during his single year of residence nearly all the examinations in the four year course and was later graduated and in 1883 84 he was engaged in advanced work at Johns Hopkins University, Balti, Md He returned to Utah in the fall of 1884, in response to a summons from the home institution, and served as professor of geology and chemistry, with varied activities in other departments, in the Brigham Young Academy from 1884 to 1888 While still a member of the faculty, he was elected a member of the board of trustees of the Brigham Young Academy During his residence in Provo, he served successively as city councilman, alderman and justice of the peace In 1888 he was called to Salt Lake City to take the presidency of the Latter day Saints College, which position he held until 1893 He was president of and professor of geology in the University of Utah, 1894 97 In the year last named he resigned the presidency, but retained the chair of geology, which had been specially endowed and ten years later 1907 he resigned the professorship to follow the practical work of mining geology, for which his services were in great demand In 1891 he received the degree of Bachelor of Science, and in 1912 the honorary degree of Doctor of Science, from his old alma mater, Lehigh University In 1890 he was given the honorary degree

910 Reply to “The Great Apostasy”

  1. In writing this review, I fear that some of my Mormon friends may feel that I am attacking them and their religion This is not the case I am attacking James Edward Talmage s 1909 work entitled The Great Apostasy Considered in the Light of Scriptural and Secular History, and taking him to task for shoddy historical method, a general ignorance of his subject matter, and poor conclusions I do not encourage you to try to defend him, for his work is seriously flawed in a multitude of ways.After readi [...]


  2. Ever since my husband and I toured Temple Square in Salt Lake City, I have been aware of the great apostasy that was foretold by prophets in the Bible I only knew a little bit about it, and that Martin Luther, and others, saw and revealed what had happened to the Primitive Church that Jesus Christ organized when he walked the earth I had heard of the dark ages and just had a vague idea that somehow, when the Apostles of Jesus Christ had all perished, that the church drifted into error BUT, I had [...]


  3. It s a little too reliant on the anti Catholic protestant modernist histories that were popular around the time Elder Talmadge wrote it I would recommend it as an illustration of how the church thought of the apostasy around the turn of the century, but wouldn t take it as the last word on the history At the very least, it should be read with Miranda Wilcox s Standing Apart as a updated companion piece.


  4. This was such an insightful commentary on what is usually a mysterious part of our religious history In the post Da Vinci Code world, this book is a great clarifier on what happened after Christ and the apostles were all gone from the earth how the world gradually fell into apostasy and then slowly got back to the point where the gospel could be restored.


  5. A wonderful little treatise which gives the history of the Christian church after the death of Christ up until its restoration in 1830 This is a good jumping off place for newer material that deals with the early Christian church and the rise of Catholicism An LDS classic.



  6. I enjoyed this read It allowed me to go back to my academic religious study roots and read a book that is not flowery or sweet, but just laying out the facts as presented Having said that I have made about 100 notes of places that I would like to work on future study to verify facts, read original sources, and do further research This book is a bit heavy for most casual readers This did take quite a bit of time to digestI took it slow so that I could really work with the information I did enjoy [...]


  7. Talmage explains the great apostasy in such a simple and straight forward way It s clear that an apostasy happened and that a restoration of the true church of Christ was necessary Entertaining read with a lot of interesting historical facts mingled in.


  8. An Overview of the ApostasyA well documented assessment of changes and conditions in Christianity leading to an Apostasy from within and without the Church and the subsequent need for a restoration of Priesthood authority.


  9. This book is a broad overview of some of the evidences that many Christians hold were the cause for the loss of the true priesthood authority given by Jesus Christ to His Apostles during the meridian of time Talmage talks of the suppression inflicted by Roman emperors which caused so much damage to the organization of Christ s Church After the suppression ended, and Constantine relinquished pagan gods for the God of Christendom, Talmage goes on to support the further corrupted nature of true and [...]


  10. Interesting and well researched although dated history book exploring the reasons the Great Apostasy happened Talmage establishes the fact that the authority of the Church, established by Jesus Christ, has not continued in unbroken succession Mormons believe that one must have authority in order to give authority or to pass authority along, and authority or Priesthood power can be lost when the person holding the authority does not live in harmony with God s teachings A quick look at papal histo [...]


  11. I continued my exploration of my father s suggested literature with another Talmage classic I was once again enthralled with Talmage s vocabulary, and found myself doing a little vocabulary expanding work with a dictionary to figure out just exactly what the author was saying I became even interested in the history of the Catholic Church, and the writings of Josephus, the recorder of Jewish History during the Dark Ages Nero and the chapters concerning the inquisition of impossing Christianity u [...]


  12. Most Mormons would be surprised I gave this book a two, but the book suffers from a few problems, most notably a huge reliance on Protestant historical propaganda As a result, the image of the Catholic Church is grossly exaggerated this is, of course, not Elder Talmage s fault as he was surely limited by his sources When the lectures upon which the book is based were delivered, Talmage would have had a very difficult time getting hold of pro Catholic works Nowadays, with the benefit of better hi [...]


  13. Having read the LDS book Jesus the Christ, also written by James E Talmage, I decided to read The Great Apostasy The Great Apostasy is also an LDS book Only knowing a little about what a Apostasy was, I wanted to learn about the subject in greater detail I thought it would be a good book to learn from This book talked about what happened with the church Christ created when He living and what happened to it after His death I would highly recommend this book, I really enjoyed it This book explain [...]


  14. The Great Apostasy is a book about the history of the decline of the primitive church from the time of Christ s death through the many difficult times that Christians endured Talmage s point is that Christ gave his authority to the original Twelve Apostles and that the authority was either lost through apostasy which a restoration is required or it never left the Earth and the changed form of the primitive church today the Catholic Church still has the authority of Christ An interesting explorat [...]


  15. What a great book written by James E Talmage I was unaware of the horrible persecutions that Christians suffered as defenders of Christ during the first few centuries following Christ s ministry upon the Earth And what innumerable sects of religion ideas came about shortly following the apostolic ministry I gave it 4 stars because I was disappointed in the short length defending The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints as the church that holds the authoritative priesthood on Earth today r [...]


  16. I ve had this book on my shelf for about 10 years waiting to be read I love the history of the apostasy and this book does have a lot of good information and brings to light some issues that I hadn t thought about For example, Talmage spends some time describing how the apostasy began as a falling from the church, which eventually translated into the falling of the church I only gave it three stars because Talmage can be a dry writer Also, his endnotes are way too long They are full of interesti [...]


  17. This is another book that took me awhile to get around to reading, but was worth it and I wished I read it awhile ago It was a great read right after Douglas s The Robe Talmage knows how to lay out complicated topics in a clear, easy to understand format and I really appreciate his knowledge and expertise The subject matter is a part of history everyone should know and I don t think there could be a better source He quotes extensively from major historians and demonstrates he has done his resear [...]


  18. As I read this book, it seemed very similar to a book that I read about a year ago Outlines of Ecclesiastical History A Text Book by B.H Roberts Although much of the territory is similar according to my faded memory of the former they are not identical Indeed, this one was written sixteen years later.To my mind, either one is probably a good introduction, and I don t regret having read both.


  19. 1 This book is sort of a disappointment after Jesus the Christ That is like the best book ever This is not 2 It is however chock full of fun details about early Christianity and early Christian apostasy.3 I would recommend buying this book rather than borrowing it I wanted to mark all sorts of bits of it while reading it that I could refer to later Talmage is an ever so quotable writer 4 This review follows somewhat the format this book is written in Yes, it is annoying 5 You all should read it [...]


  20. In unabashed political incorrectness, Talmadge walks through point by point, the prophecies of the Apostasy, the underpinnings, the causes and the implications of that great falling away.This is a very easy read as such books go and is a very good introductory read for detailed discussions of the Apostasy e.g Callisters book.Talmadge also does a good job of summarizing the interweaving the secular history of the relevant period with the religious history esp the roles of Judaist and pagan influ [...]


  21. How the Apostasy came about after Christ had established his church on the earth How the Apostasy was predicted Persecutions external as well as internal How Constantine joins Christianity for Political reasons How the Nicean Creed came about, scripture reading forbidden, revolts against the churches, the reformers as well as establishment of Christ s original church Excellent read and well documented


  22. A bit basic than his other books, and a bit caustic in his attack on false doctrines and non LDS religions, but very informative on certain aspects of the great apostasy If you want to know about the chronology, changes in doctrine, practices, ordinances, priesthood, and the like, it is a great read for you I thoroughly enjoyed it, although some parts were a little basic for what I have come to expect out of Talmage.


  23. A great book discussing how the Church Christ established fell into apostasy Many historical facts are presented as evidence of the loss of the authority of heaven on earth Structure is very similar to Jesus the Christ After reading this you wonder how the Catholic church has any ground to stand on with regards to them claiming the divinity of their religion, let alone the churches that came about during the reformation.


  24. A very short informative read I read it twice on my mission and just recently read it again The first two times took less than a day and the third time it was only 3 days or so The book is really short like 125 pages or something There is a lot of good history in there but generally you can see that there are many levels of apostasy and although it is unclear when Priesthood Authority was lost, Priesthood power was certainly lost early on in the first centuries following the resurrection.


  25. This was a generous 4 Although the two other works I read by Talmage contributed to my knowledge and testimony of the gospel nearly as much as the scriptures themselves, The Great Apostasy was no where near comprehensive enough and sacrificed heart for brevity I am grateful for the knowledge it has imparted, but I regret there not being much of it.


  26. This book is small but meaty, and it took me a while to chew through At times it was dry or difficult to understand that s history for you , but it was an exceptionally enlightening read that taught me so much It makes clear the divinity of the LDS church, and my own testimony was inarguably strengthened I feel like this is an important book that at least members should read.


  27. Very good summary of the apostasy There is a lot information that I would have imagined on the subject, including names, dates and reasons why changes were made to Christ s original church structure Three stars because of the format of the book, which was essentially a long series of bullet points This made it difficult to read.


  28. I am replacing this book from the shelf currently reading to the shelf to read This was a book my husband chose for our Sunday reading We started it and even finished a chapter We could not proceed though because our baby was born and at a moment we do not have a chance to read books together We are still planning on reading it later.


  29. This is a great book The facts of a universal Apostacy are laid out in a very clear and unambiguous manner The author has done his homework and had an inside scoop and the resources he uses in this work are extensive and varied I highly recommend this book to all those who seek to follow Jesus Christ.


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